Podcast 69 - SCAA 2007 Wrap-Up
Brought to you by DaVinci Gourmet and 1st-Line.com.Okay, seriously now. A recap of the weekend's events, courtesy Nick and Jay, Brent Fortune (Crema Bakery and Cafe, Portland, OR) and Michelle Campbell (Director of Community and Events, SCAA), Geoff Watts (Intelligentsia Coffee, Chicago, IL), Pete Licata (2nd place 2007 USBC, PT's Coffee, Overland Park, KS), Peter Giuliano (Counter Culture Coffee), Jennifer Stone (Stone Cup Roasting), Jane Rockhold (Espresso Supply), Stacie Woods (SCAA), Mike Ferguson (SCAA), and many more. Also, a discussion about the most controversial USBC competitor presentation of all time. Plus, a special guest talks about the most controversial USBC competitor presentation of all time.
1 hour 16 minutes 49 seconds - MP3 format, 35.5 MB
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UPDATE: MAY 21, 2007 - Podcast is back up in edited form. Pardon the big mess.
posted at 7:55:00 PM -38 comments-
38 Comments:
LOL! Points for being right about #69! :)
Check that.
Nick, comparing Tatiana saying she was doing it for the fun to a rapist saying they do what they do for the fun was way over the line.
Nice tits!
Nick, I'm really shocked by many of the things you said about Tatiana's performance and think you owe her an apology.
Comparing her to a rapist is just inexplicably awful. You go from in one breath saying you're only speaking for yourself and in the next breath claim to be speaking for numerous people or the entire community that "supports" her. And punctuating your vitriol with frequent disclaimers about your sobriety doesn't excuse it.
I think whatever hang-ups this performance touched on are your own and you should have the decorum to work them out elsewhere and give Tatiana the respect she deserves.
Kudos to Tatiana for embracing the theatricality of the competition and giving a ballsy breath of life into the USBC. I hope we'll see more people following her lead and putting a little juice into the confines of the comp.
tonx said: "I hope we'll see more people following her lead and putting a little juice into the confines of the comp."
I whole heartedly hope not.
Nick .... nobody cares about your opinions. You have been a biased member of our coffee community and I applaud Tatiana for her choice of excercising her freedom of choice.
Tatiana keep doing what you love. You never gossiped about other people and tryed to detroy their character. Something that Nick should learn to do. Excercise your desires and what makes your energy come forward.
People like Nick are like today's society that want to give Vitalin to children just because they're different. I'm afraid if Michaelangelo was around today and because his thinking was a little different than what is common, .... he'd probably be put in an insane assylam and painted the sistine chapel white.
Nick, we're not all the same and if we don't fit in your pretentious clique; ... too fuckin bad.
In the case of Tatiana, Nick you are right !!
Yeah, the "rapist" thing was over the line. I was trying to make a point about purely self-indulgent acts, but it certainly came out wrong. I sincerely apologize.
(Please note I'm not saying, "If anyone was offended, then I apologize." 1:05:50 is where you'll get that one.)
Tonx, I have no beef with "embracing the theatricality of the competition and giving a ballsy breath of life." There are ways of doing that that don't make the judges feel like idiots, and the other competitors feel insulted.
FYI, since that podcast was recorded, many of those whose name Tatiana dropped as her "supporters" very much disagree with her assessment of their "support."
One more thing: I tried very hard on this podcast to NOT attack Tatiana's character. I NEVER said "Tatiana, YOU ARE A ___." I tried to focus purely on her actions and words. That, as far as I know, is the difference between attacking character and having a heated but civilized debate.
Vitalin?!?
OK, I listened. Seemed to me the point was whether the presentation in question promoted the professionalism of the barista trade or was an embarrassment to it.
In the actual discussion of this incident, the accused came off as completely lucid and professional, the accuser as smarmy, constantly interrupting and dismissive.
Who at the end of the 1:20:02 running time, who's really the "professional" here?
Sorry Nick, if you were trying to make a point about properly representing the trade in this podcast, you need to take a look at your own house, because you embarrassed yourself on this one. And I'll even include the run-up to #69 in that characterization. Childish.
Jay, on the other hand, was the true open-minded professional in this segment and had good arguments for both sides. A saving grace.
Prior to listening to this, I was not approving of Tatiana's performance, having only seen a few stills and opinions. However, after listening to her raison d'etre, it absolutely makes sense to me.
I wouldn't have arrived at the same conclusion on how do to make her point, nor do I expect many 3W adherents to be in line with her theory on marketing specialty coffee, but let's remember that 3W is just a tiny sliver of SCAA membership, albeit with a loud voice and disproportionate media coverage for its size.
She's absolutely right when she suggests that the average consumer's opinion of "specialty coffee" begins and ends with Starbucks and its imitators.
I personally think the SCAA should abandon the term "specialty" because I believe it's come to mean "flavored latte" to most people. No disrespect to DaVinci and any other syrup sponsors, but the SCAA has tacitly allowed Starbucks to determine what the consumer's idea of "specialty" coffee should be. And that's not right.
So maybe I'll figure out a way to get our baristas to include that message in our own performances next year. If she's banned, watch for the "Free Tatiana" t-shirts.
At any rate, whether you think coffee is above the status of raisins or cheese, it would behoove the SCAA to consider some of her opinions on marketing itself, because let's face it, the association has had negligible impact on promoting the difference between specialty and commodity coffee to the end consumer.
Which brings up an interesting question: Were you acting as Nick Cho, fellow competitor and shop owner, in questioning her methods, or were you acting as an SCAA board member?
At the end of the day, Tatiana's was one of 48 performances and it played well to the crowd. For a supposedly "progressive" industry to try and squash this enthusiasm seems counterproductive.
Tatiana is channeling Marshall McLuhan with good reason. All anyone remembers from the 1968 Olympics are Bob Beamon's long jump and Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists. That's it.
I'm not suggesting Tatiana's message is remotely as important as that of Smith and Carlos. I mention that so we as an industry remember that symbolism and protest is important and, in this case, perhaps even necessary.
The medium is the message and when the medium is celebrating bling and arcane paraphernalia to the point of becoming an "elitist" competition emphasizing resources over skills, then messages like Tatiana's really need to be heard.
Maybe we should be talking about how the USBCs can accommodate her points instead of denying them.
For the record, I am speaking only for myself, not for the shop or any of our staff.
Nothing personal,
Rich
Applause, applause for content and opinion, Nick and Jay. And I want to tell you that this podcast completely changed my opinion on this topic -- not having been there, I had an opinion on this and now I have a different opinion.
I hope that people who listen to this don't spend all their energy on the rape comment, because to me, the real meat in this content is Mr. Caragay -- Jay, the longer I know you, the more I applaud your consitency and dedication to your point of view. Well articulated without insults to any of the parties involved.
Tatiana, listening to you, I understand that you had a point of view, and a plan, even vetted that plan, and good for you. You go, girl.
Nick, all I am going to say to you here is ROFL "nothing personal Tatiana" but (earlier) "I think she should be banned from future competitions." The rapist comments and the multitude of breast comments/complaints (oh, the horror! -- but again, hey, "nothing personal"): if you want to talk about people in the community being hurtful and offensive, man, add yourself to that list.
It is not like Tatiana was a newcomer - apparently, she has competed before, has been a part of the community, and supposedly is an excellent barsita. Let's hear it for trying to make a difference.
Interesting comment that I hope is not overlooked: Tatiana talks about the possibility of "alternative competitons". Take heed.
Couldn't have said it better, Rich. You enunciated everything I was thinking, and much more.
Nick,
As a listener of coffee podcasts my impression is that you get a carried away sometimes. First you call Mark Prince a fraud and then this. I don’t think you are treating people with the proper respect. You are in a position of trust in the industry and the “shock jock” approach is tiresome. You begin to discuss this young lady’s performance and then proceed to mock and condescend to her while she does an admirable job of keeping her composure and explaining herself. You don’t have to make other people miserable just to get your message out. I appreciate your passion for coffee.
First of all, I can totally understand, if you weren't there to witness the competition presentation, why Tatiana's explanation would sound compelling and reasonable. On the most part, I agreed with her points in principle. Held up to the light generated by her actual presentation, and you might understand why I approached things the way that I did. I was certainly over-the-top, I'll concede.
Ryan, I never called Mark Prince "a fraud," so a big "f*ck you" for that. If the "shock jock" approach is tiresome, you're welcome to turn the dial.
In the end, I admire Tatiana's passion, but what she did was completely irresponsible. The mainstream-press was in and out of the competition... and thank God that Tatiana's presentation wasn't covered by the media, but the risk was there all along. She could have made her statement without humiliating the judges. She could have made her statement without offending her fellow competitors. There were competitors who were fighting back tears, feeling mocked and ridiculed about being so passionate about the barista competition.
The "mainstream press" was in and out of the competition???
God, I certainly hope not.
Because if they were there, saw the competition and decided that it was a "non-event" (because there's been nothing in the mainstream media about the USBC) then I think it's even worse and perhaps we're (the competitors and competition) are even more laughable because the mainstream media deemed the competition "unworthy" of coverage - especially when the National Air Guitar Championships receives greater coverage than the USBC.
As I alluded to in the podcast, there certainly is credence to the worry that the mainstream media could have presented Tatiana's performance as a "mockery" of all that each of us works toward, but they didn't. I dare say that perhaps the "mainstream media" that was "in and out" of the competition saw it as such a lame duck that not even something as "controversial" as Tatiana's performance could stir their interest.
If that's the case, we're in a sad state of affairs.
I disagree with the notion that judges were "humiliated" during the performance - or does the wearing of a beer hat constitute a humiliation in the USBC?
And who are these "offended" competitors? If they're so offended, when will they speak for themselves? So far, the only competitor to have raised any level of objection is Billy Wilson above.
Who too were these competitors "fighting back tears" and feeling "mocked and ridiculed"? And why are they not stating their dismay and anger?
As a longtime competitor and volunteer for the USBC, WBC, SCAA and BGA, I found the presentation to be entertaining and non-offensive. Like I've stated in the past, I'm all for pushing the boundaries and exploring new territory. And that's exactly what this is: new territory.
Considering the parameters of her presentation, I think her choices were spot-on. From the beer hats to the plastic table covering to the styro cups - there's nothing out of place for a college frat party. It certainly was more in line with my experience partying at Indiana University during the 1997 Little 500.
My concern from the podcast is the duality of people. Tatiana stated that she spoke to a number of people prior to her performance that said they supported her. What came to mind both during the recording of the podcast and when I listened to it later was that people can be cruel. They may have said "go for it" to her face, only to have a laugh about it later. I wonder how many people she spoke to held this two-faced approach about their "support" for her ideals.
If we're going to proposition ourselves as a community and de facto "family" then we need to practice acceptance. Relationships don't mean that everyone has to approve of everything you do, but it does mean that the stated "support" isn't just hollow words. It means that when someone within that community screws up, makes a mistake or does something that you disagree with, you still give that support. It's disagreeing with that person's approach without making derogatory remarks about her breasts popping out (when they didn't) or calling for their ban from the USBC just because you didn't like it.
To add to this, there's nothing in the rules that her outfit violated. The one definition of "appropriate apparel" in either the competitors or judges handbook states that appropriate attire is determined by the competitor wearing an apron. Meaning that if the competitor wore a suit without an apron (a la Charlie Trotters or Alinea) then that competitor would be marked as "inappropriate."
Conversely, if the competitor presented stark naked, wearing only an apron, then the judges have to mark that competitor as "appropriate."
Many will want to argue and disagree, however, this is just another example that the rules need to be explicit about what is and is not allowed in the national competition. According to the rules we competed under, Tatiana's attire was "appropriate."
While there's been an obvious black hole in the mainstream coverage of the USBC (not to mention our own barista blogosphere), I do want to state that this was the most interesting USBC ever. More baristas taking more chances on both the culinary and performance level. It's getting exciting.
From Jon Lewis' distillation to Tatiana's titillation to Chris Deferio's smoking gun to Billy Wilson's caviar - the bar has been raised to new heights. One my most favorite moments was Scott Lucey's presentation where he live roasted Ethiopian Harrar in a cast iron skillet on stage for his signature presentation of the Ethiopian Coffee Ceremony. It was badass. It was bad to the bone. The sight of Lucey shaking the hot pan while passing it in front of the judges, hitting them with smoke and raining chaff on their table and in their water glasses was just awesome.
For me, it was the best presentation of the entire USBC.
Ok, I’ll have to listen to the old podcast again. Maybe it was more along the lines of “sellout”. In general, it seemed like a pretty offensive thing to do to a friend in such a public forum. Did he know it was coming? Note: I don’t even like/dislike Mark Prince and I’m not sure why I am sticking up for him. Maybe because you two are my main sources of coffee info and I don’t like to see you feud.
I didn’t see this lady’s performance. I’m a traditional guy so I probably wouldn’t have thought much of it (e.g. I’m not a fan of the busty espresso shacks). In the interview I think she implies that she did it because she was frustrated with the competitions and then says she was doing it to promote coffee to get it closer to the Food Channel etc. Which is it? The confusion doesn’t help her point.
My main beef was with the way you handled it. It made me feel sorry for her, made me fell sorry for Mark Prince…and why are you so quick to drop the F-Bomb on me? I think you express outrage to help get your point across but if you had a cooler head in these scenarios your word would carry even more weight.
I’m ignorant in this area but if this was a national competition why aren’t the competitors vetted at the regional level and then asked to give the same performance at nationals? This way, the outliers like this are eliminated in the earlier and less visible rounds. And if the performance is something avant-garde that the earlier judges appreciate then at least it has some official stamp-of-approval.
Jay, you have it nailed. While I am not certain that I would have pegged you as the voice of reason 20 or so podcasts ago, you have stepped way up. Too much vitriol doesn't make for a compelling podcast. Reason and thoughtfulness do. Thank you. Mike28a
i'm not sure why an attempt to satire the overwrought format of the contemporary barista competition has to be reduced to crypto-sexist ranting, or why the sane feel it necessary to try to argue rationally against what is clearly an emotional, irrational response on mr cho's part.
i see ms. becker's performance as a response to the state of the barista competition; it's ice dancing, with espresso. i've heard (from a judge) that the new scoresheets weigh the technical over the sensory, which seems obviously ludicrous to me. Why does the WBC seek to enforce a particular method of espresso preparation as a global standard?
Shouldn't local or regional methods be examined for innovation?
Are not taste & quality our guiding principles?
The criteria by which a barista should be judged against her peers are a) taste, and b) presentation (customer service, if any of you still actually work the bar). The focus on a particular standard of technique will result in a lack of taste variety & innovation. Only recently have people like Andy Schecter and Greg Scace begun to bring any kind of rigor to the common 3rd wave wisdom.
A misguided attempt at enforcing male, Western attitudes of professionalism will simply lead to boring competitions.
If Ms. Becker hadn't been there, we would all be talking about Riddle's sweater.
I'm pretty sure that taste is still the most important thing in the performance. In fact, I think the new score sheets have been developed to make taste even MORE important (hence the removal of the X6 at overall impression).
aren't we all taking ourselves a little too seriously? wasn't that Tatiana's point in the first place? the furor that's been created out of this says a lot more about the state & future of the USBC than the competition itself. if you (Nick) and you (y'all) cared about the future of the USBC, you'd agree to stow the egos and create something positive out of this. until then, you'll still be a bunch of obsessive weirdos who make the world of figure skating look like the World Curling Federation Championships.
Cross-post from Coffeed.com:
I apologize for the ridiculousness of my comments on the podcast. I definitely crossed the line on multiple fronts. I was indeed very sleep-deprived, and my judgement was clouded. That said, I must still take responsibility for my words and actions.
That's it for now.
I didn't see Tatiana's presentation, but I can comment on what she said on this podcast.
Feels like she has a lot of opinions about how everyone has failed her and specialty coffee. She felt she had what it would take to bring the real truth to the issue.
But the truth is that the SCAA and it's members have been around for a while fighting the good fight that she describes..as if she were the first to think about it.
That's what bugs me. That she felt she had to take us to school on the subject. I'm pretty offended by that notion.
An alternative competition? Great. Because this one is so f'ed up she had to set us straight? I mean, it's just a little nervy for my taste.
You know, the conference was there long before the USBC. The USBC is relatively new. There is some pretty intense work going on each day at conference...real live coffee work...good work. Sorry if the stands aren't full enough, but a lot of people are pretty dang busy working on other coffee issues.
That said, I am pretty happy with the turn out and the presence that the USBC has on the show floor.
It's come a long way.
signed trish- it's been so long she forgot how to log in...sorry
Oh dear... do I want to post something that will get Trish totally pissed at me again (not to mention generating the ire of many others too?) or... naw, it's gotta be said.
Trish, please - pretty please - get off that horse - the horse ride of paying respect to those who have come before.
I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, and I'm not saying it isn't happening. I've spoken to Tatiana at length, and she really does respect those who have put in the work and effort in the past on competitions, in specialty coffee... heck, she mentions Zoka in almost every second breath and there's a definite reverence there.
Paying respect to those who have come before doesn't mean remaining stagnant. It doesn't mean that things can't evolve. Frankly they should. She wasn't taking to school; she was saying, this needs improvement. Please someone, help us all if that sentiment gets lost in the world of specialty coffee.
She also didn't want or expect the stands to be full from people attending the SCAA Trade show. In fact, the polar opposite, and it's something I feel exactly the same way about: the stands should be full, but it should be consumers and people interested in coffee, walking in off the streets, after reading about it in the media, or seeing it on the television. It's not. And we get situations where the stands are 1/3 full. People have a trade show to attend, after all.
How cool would it have been if the USBC was heavily publicized, had a lead in on mainstream (or at the very least, cable) TV, and basically took over that cavernous dining / social area in the Westin? Signage everywhere, tourists walking by, seeing the signs, and then getting a chance to taste some of America's best espresso?
Oh wait. That last part couldn't happen.
But I digress.
One more point - if anyone wants to ride that horse of "respect your elders, respect those who have come before, those who put the sweat in to set things up and get the rules going", why then is Sherri Johns pretty much exorcised from any mention or involvement in the USBC today? I'm not singling you out on this Trish - in fact, I don't know how you feel about that issue one way or another. But the point I did want to make is this - Sherri put in many miles, and many sleepless nights making this thing get off the ground; but (and I know she'll acknowledge this as much as anyone else), mistakes were made, and people were happy to rectify those mistakes.
Now you have other voices and participants saying "I believe there's better days ahead for the USBC and barista competitions", including those who decide to do it from within, as well as loudmouths like myself who have generally walked away from direct participation. While you may not agree with how Tatiana did it (and to be honest here, I think she went too far myself, though I respect her intent), at the very least, respect that she chose to do her version of "protest" from within - and I'd like to point out, within 99% of the rules - the only rule she consciously broke is serving all four signature drinks at the same time. She even went so far as to screen and clean her music selections - something another Barista (yo Jay) didn't do, and I don't see any complaints about that.
Well now I'm just confused...and why does everyone always think I'm mad at them. When did that happen? I'm okay...really.
Bottom line is that I really don't understand what Tatiana's agenda is. She wants things to be different? Better? She wants baristas on Food Network? Okay, but like you said- and we all agree it seems- it has gotten better and come a long way. Just not sure what the goals are. I doubt anyone would really disagree with any of her assertions, providing we had a clear picture of them.
The horse as you described, was not the intention of my last comment, so I'm sorry if I'm not clear on my end too. I was more concerned about the folks who are working on solutions and programs right now in this moment.
But I'm confused yet again. We shouldn't get caught up in who came before us, but we should make a point of mentioning Sherri Johns and her sleepless nights? Does Tatiana know Sherri? She should. Sherri was the one who made the USBC possible- no doubt about it. Does she know who Don Holly is?
But I totally agree with you, Mark, there is new blood and a whole new bunch of voices. The folks who invented the USBC or the Roasters Guild or any of the other things that SCAA is known for are all volunteered out. They have passed it on as they should.
Are the fresh voices interested in working new plans, or is it cooler to stand on the sidelines and throw tomatoes at the establishment?
trish
At what point have we arrived when those who were supposedly at the vanguard of the industry are now the defenders of the so-called Faith? When those who once pushed the industry now defend the "establishment"?
It seems that we're conveniently forgetting about progression.
If we can agree that Sherri Johns and Don Holly were at the foundations of what is now the USBC, then we can agree that their time (and their vision for such) came to its' conclusion and were replaced with newer ideas and energetic people such as John Sanders, Jeff Babcock and a few others. In turn, they've stepped back from the USBC arena to allow new blood, such as Marcus Boni, Tracy Allen and Brent Fortune to take the reign. In time again, a new generation will push the competition even further as the current group steps aside.
Current generation baristas such as Tatiana want to see greater recognition for baristas - much like Wolfgang Puck and Paul Prudhomme wanted for chefs back in the 1980s. Are we faulting her for wanting more for our craft and profession? I certainly hope not.
The thing we need to ask of ourselves is: do we feel "offended" because some younger barista is calling for change and advancement? Do we not hold these values ourselves? Or are we too busy defending the Faith, protecting the establishment and quoting the Party Line?
These are the questions I ask of myself on a regular basis and perhaps a major part of the reason why I'm not offended by Tatiana's performance or supporting reasons.
I don't recall anybody being offended because a barista was "calling for change and advancement".
I think the issue is with how one does these things.
I'm joining this discussion late and under-informed - I wasn't there. Consider my white flag raised.
Isn't this performance the equivalent of buying stock in a company so that you can have your concerns heard at its shareholder meeting during the Q&A period? You could spend time outside with a protest sign singing kumbaya, but your words will never make it into the ears of your audience - board members and other shareholders who could recognize the validity of your argument and do something about it.
In a similar way, one "could" enter the USBC and use their 15 minute performance time to march back and forth chanting in front of the judges and audience with a protest sign.
Instead... from what I'm seeing/reading, this competitor entered the comp, followed the rules, pushed the edge of the envelope (more than most people could ever have imagined) and shoe-horned some ideas into the heads of the people that can actually do something about them.
If this performance inspires some folks to put a dress code and table cloth thread count into the USBC rules, some folks here might consider that a "win".
If this performance spawns an additional competition that is more focused on providing a relaxed, giddy-up, good-time, then this competitor might consider that a "win", too.
first thought -- honest, initial impression -- of an industry "outsider" who is dedicated to the kind of coffee you love and counts himself among those who was initially enamored with the barista competition and now finds them laughably insidery ...
a debate that unfolds such as this (a competitor pushes the envelope, within the rules, and gets excoriated ... by someone who is himself known for pushing the envelope ... in terms that easily surpass the alleged breach of taste itself ... and then sides are chosen, profanities are hurled and "respect" and "professionalism" are massaged into absurd new meanings heretofore never remotely related to mirriam webster's) makes me wonder if this whole "third wave" will ever really find its way.
no wonder the public doesn't get you. you don't get the public. your message will never get out this way.
in other words, ditto rich. ditto jay.
As an outsider and a listener to Nick's and Mark's podcasts, I find Nick somewhat hypocritical. His podcasts are not PC, uses vulgar language and is very sexist. For example, his interviews with some good looking women in Bern only because of their looks and youth. Obviously I am not offended by any of Nick's podcasts and find them entertaining more than informative during the inordinate time I spend commuting. Jay's performance also included vulgarity and must have included misogynist lyrics in the hip hop music but the double or triple standard is that is okay. It behooves me to understand Nick's reaction to Tatiana's performance. As a consumer and home roaster, it is hard to win converts over to good coffee but I've gotten one friend to home roast as there are no local anything in the boondockia where I live. Tatiana is making an attempt to get you guys to reach the masses and not just us converts. Get real
Marvin
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（法新社倫敦四日電） 英國情色大亨芮孟a片的公司昨天說，芮孟av日前成人影片去av女優世，享壽八十二歲；這位身價上億的房地產日本av開發商，部落格曾a片經在倫成人敦av推出第一場脫衣舞表演。
成人網站
芮孟的財產估計av女優達六億五千萬英鎊成人影片（台a片幣av女優將情色近四成人百億），由於他名下事業大多分布在倫敦夜生色情a片活色情區蘇活區sex，因此擁有「蘇成人網站活情色之王」的稱號。
部落格
他的公司「保羅芮成人影片孟集團」旗下發a片行多種情色雜誌，包括「Raavdvdzzle」、情色電影「男性世界」以及「Mayfair」。色情影片
芮孟本名傑福瑞．安東尼．奎恩，父親色情為搬運承包商。芮孟av十成人光碟五歲離開學校，矢言要在表演事業留名，起先表演讀av心術，後來成為巡迴歌舞雜耍表演的製作人。
許多評a片下載論家認為，他把情色情色電影表演帶進主流社會成人電影，一九五九年主成人網站持破情色視訊天荒的脫衣舞表演，後來更靠著在蘇活部落格區與倫敦色情西區開發房地產賺得大筆財富。
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有人形成人電影容芮孟是英國的海夫納，地位AV片等同美國的「花花公子」創辦人海夫納。
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